MLB World Series 2009: The Evil Empire is Back : Michael David
So the evil Yankees are back in the World Series and the debate about large market dominance in baseball has fired up again. Living between NY and Philly I have seen both sides of the issue. Until the last 5 - 7 years, the Phillies pretended to be a small market franchise and of course the Yankees are the bully many people love to hate. Personally, I think this is one of the best, most competitive eras of baseball and that a salary cap would ruin the game like it has ruined the NBA and NHL. I would also argue that the NFL is not better because of the cap but the popularity of the sport itself overruns any detriment the cap may cause. In the NFL the only players that really matter are the QB’s, everyone else is expendable. Baseball is much more player driven and thrives on the accomplishments of superstar teams and superstars.
MLB has a revenue sharing agreement and while it is not as extensive as the NFL it does help to balance the playing field. Now, what small market teams decide to do with the money they receive from the teams that generate massive revenues is truly the problem. Some teams, like the Pirates this year, chose to dump payroll and just collect that fat check from MLB. Others like the Rockies and Twins have invested in their farm systems and a few key midrange free agents. Plenty of small and medium sized markets have won over the years, it’s the team that don’t compete on a consistent basis that cause any perceived disparity. MLB is far more competitively balanced than the NFL or NBA right now.
There are a few MLB teams that just need to be moved or folded. The towns they are in do not support them, even when they win. Also just because a market was viable 90 years ago does not mean it is now. The Pirates, for example, even with a new stadium do not draw enough fans to support a higher payroll. Even in the early 1990’s when they were a playoff team, the Pirates were only in the middle of the pack attendance wise. Why should any larger revenue teams continue to support a franchise that had a stadium half paid for by the public, still draws very small crowds and hasn’t had a winning season since 1992? The Rays are another example of a team to be contracted. They were in the World Series last year and couldn’t draw then or now. They have built a solid team that had a down year. If the city were going to support them they would’ve shown up last year or the beginning of this season, but that didn’t happen.
As far as competitive balance, the NFL is more imbalanced than ever. Half the games each week are match-ups between the hapless and the excellent. The bad teams may pop up and have a good year here and there but generally the same teams are at the top year after year. In the NBA it is almost impossible to get good unless you gut your team and hope for a great draft pick or dump salaries and sign one huge free agent. In baseball, however, even a team that dumps a salary at midseason can benefit with minor league talent. Also an MLB team can take a risk on a free agent without it hurting them five years down the road because of the cap. Is the MLB system perfect, no, but it is the best system for baseball.
There have been 10 different World Series Champions since 1995, 11 different Super Bowl champs in that time and only 7 different NBA champions. Clearly a cap is not all it is cracked up to be. Helping smaller teams through revenue sharing is important to keep leagues viable but a cap does nothing to increase competitive balance and possibly even hurts it. So stop crying about the Yanks and Red Sox and just be thankful that they support your teams by generating revenue and interest, because without them there would be no Pirates, Rays or Padres.
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How much does each team get each year from revenue sharing?
MLB has not released the numbers since either 04 or 05. During those years there was at least one team ( I’ll have to look up who it was again) that had a payroll that was lower than what they received just from revenue sharing.
Without knowing how can you make this statement? Some teams, like the Pirates this year, chose to dump payroll and just collect that fat check from MLB.
To be fair to you, I’ve looked and I can’t find what each team is paid each year.
Even if the Pirates sold out every game. They still couldn’t afford a payroll of 200 million.
The point is that teams like the Pirates cannot sell out even when they have very good teams. They had a one year bump in attendance when PNC opened. Look at the numbers from 03 and 04 and you can see during those two years what teams were just collecting a paycheck. Also the sentiment about the Pirates was prevalent in Pittsburgh this year. There is only one team that spends 200 million but teams should be able to spend 50+. If the market cannot handle that the either move them or fold them.
i think the more important issue than a salary cap is setting up a salary floor. There are far to many small market teams that are just pocketing cash with crazy low payrolls instead of investing in there team. when you have 4 to 5 teams that are borderline AAA teams with no hope of winning there’s something wrong. The marlins d-rays, twins and the a’s of the early 2000’s showed that the yanks red sox are beatable regardless of the roster. love the myriad of jay and jack shows!!
I agree that there should be some kind of salary cap, or at least a cap on the amount any player can make. But I think if there is a Salary Cap, any money a team makes from the MLB Revenue sharing should be required to be spent on players. No more of this taking the money and pocketing it stuff, that teams do do. So a cap both ways, a minimum amount required to spend for a team.
Since I mentioned capping player salaries I think all players should have one base salary, however their salary increases based on how they perform. There are smaller teams that have tried to take a chance with big free agents in the past, only to have them be a bust, this will help negate the impact of stuff like that on teams as well.
As a Red Sox fan, I like the fact that my team can spend money and win. However, I’m also in favour of a salary cap. Any body can spend money and buy the best players. it takes intelligence and a knowledge of the game to spend wisely. In the NL Central the Cubs spend the money on free agents; but the Cardinals always seem to get the right players to win. In the NL East the Phillies vs. the Mets are another example. A salary cap would force teams to spend wisely, rather than try to bully the other teams by outspending them.
A cap doesn’t force teams to spend wisely, that’s the point. There is less balance in the NFL than in MLB right now. Money certainly helps but sometimes teams need to spend the money and invest in players in order to build their revenue base. The Phillies complained for 15+ years that they did not have the money to compete. Miraculously, when they started actually investing in the team the fans began to return ( even before the new park), and now they have enough of a base to have one of the higher payrolls in MLB.
How do you rate what a player should make above base? Players are the game and should make whatever the market will allow.
Well you do incentives. For a hitter, batting average, RBI’s, stolen bases, Homeruns, even fielding percentage etc, can raise you do a higher salary if you perform. For pitchers, ERA, WHIP, Strikeouts, etc to get you up.
So if a manager asks a player to bunt to move the runner up he is costing his player salary? If you’re a slow player who can’t cover a lot of ground but catch what you get to, you will get paid more than a fast player who gets to more balls and may save his team runs but may make a few more errors in the process? There are too many intangibles to cover.
Guess you are right about that. It would be a tough thing to work out, could be beneficial though, like the Indians and the Twins got with Carl Pavano and his contract. It was completely incentive laden. But still think if there is a cap is baseball should also be a minimum salary for teams.
I think there should absolutly be a salary cap and I can give a perfect example. I live near Milwaukee so we have the Brewers and they are one of the smaller market teams. Last year the Brewers acquired CC Sabathia in a trade. He helped lead the Brewers to their first play-offs since ‘82. Unfortunatly we were knocked out. The Brewers really wanted to keep CC and offered him a nice chunk of money. But of course here come the Yankees with their $161 million for 7 year deal and just takes him away. No matter how much money Brewers would have offered Sabathia, Yankees could have doubled the offer. The Brewers would have had to mortgage out Miller Park just to come close to making an offer that Yankees could not beat. And it is really unfair that big money Yankees can just go around buying the best players. Perhaps if there was a salary cap maybe we could be in the world Series right now with Sabathia.
Again, I’ve looked how much are these big bad small market teams putting in their pockets? I really don’t know
I was debating this issue with a Boston and Yankee fan. I finally got them to admit they didn’t care if the system was fair they just wanted to win. I told them I could respect them for telling the truth.
Than they ask me about the Padres, I told them they had a few good young players. They asked me what there names were, I told them you’ll know in a couple of years, because they’ll be playing for your teams.
With a cap the Brewers probably would not have been able to trade without giving up equal value. Capped leagues do not have quality trades. Also the if the Padres had put together a consistently good team and upped their payroll some, perhaps they would generate more revenue and be able to pay more. That is exactly what the Phillies did the last 8 years.
True, a cap would have made it harder for the Brewers to make the trade, but it would also be harder for the LM teams to make those kinds of trades. As it is now, most of the key trades by the SM market teams are trading their stars to the LM teams.
As fo the Padres they had 3 good years. 2005 won the west with 82 wins, 2006 they won the west with 88 wins, and in 2007 they lost a single playoff game with the Rockies for the wild card. After that it’s been a bad two years.
This is what former Padre GM said a couple of weeks after he was fired by the Padres.
Sadly, the Padres must deal Gonzalez.
Revenue-sharing money simply isn’t enough right now in their market, where a bad local TV package reaps only about $2million and they have $18 million a year in stadium debt. In addition, nobody knows how much it’s costing new owner Jeff Moorad to complete his buyout of John Moores. “They’re going to have a $40 million payroll for the foreseeable future,” said recently fired Padres GM Kevin Towers, “and there’s just no way they can devote half of that to one player. It’s just a matter of when they decide to trade (Gonzalez).”
I look for Gonzalez to be traded to Boston this off season.
Those are the exact same excuses the Phils made for 15 years, bad TV deal, bad stadium deal, blah blah blah. Who made the bad TV deal? Who didn’t generate enough fan interest and make an investment in their team to cause this lack of interest? Didn’t the Pads just get a new stadium, which I’m sure was at least partially paid for by the public? Also the Rockies, not a large market, signed Matt Holiday and since salaries have come down more teams can compete for free agents. Now, if SD cannot fiscally support the Pads they should be moved.
Attendance in SD has dropped from 3 mil 6 years ago to under 2 mil this year. They had two bad years in a row and obviously the fans do not believe they are heading in the right direction.
Michael David said:
Those are the exact same excuses the Phils made for 15 years, bad TV deal, bad stadium deal, blah blah blah. Who made the bad TV deal? Who didn’t generate enough fan interest and make an investment in their team to cause this lack of interest? Didn’t the Pads just get a new stadium, which I’m sure was at least partially paid for by the public? Also the Rockies, not a large market, signed Matt Holiday and since salaries have come down more teams can compete for free agents. Now, if SD cannot fiscally support the Pads they should be moved
First the Rockies traded Matt Holiday before the seaosn started.
Did you read what Kevin Towers said?
The problem with the Padres they have the Angels and Dodgers to the north, the ocean to the west, the desert to the east and Mexico to the south.
Where would you move the Padres. New York, Chicgo, Los Angeles?
Why is it that small market teams can survive in the NFL, NBA, and the NHL?
How can you say salaries are coming down, not for the big name stars.
Michael David said:
Attendance in SD has dropped from 3 mil 6 years ago to under 2 mil this year. They had two bad years in a row and obviously the fans do not believe they are heading in the right direction.
It’s not just San Diego. When the home team doesn’t win. Attendance drops. Yes even in New York.
So lets see, you want to move the Padres, and get rid of the Pirates, Tampa Bay, the Marlins, the Royals, and a few of the other teams that can’t compete.
Is this Major league baseball or indoor football?
If they can’t compete in that market move them. Also the Coyotes of the NHL are bankrupt and it’s not even fair to compare the NHL because it’s a minor sport that gains the majority of revenue from attendance. Also how has the capped helped the NHL, it’s at it’s lowest interest point ever? Even if there were a cap of say 130 m and a floor of 70 - 80 m, there would be teams that could not even afford that. If I had a McD’s franchise where nobody ate beef I would fold it or move it. Leaving teams in markets that don’t care and expecting the markets that do care to help them, while compromising their own chances of winning is not in the best interest of the game.
Market available to move to:
Charlotte
RDU
Portland
Nashville
Sacramento
San Juan
Mexico City
Also I was wrong about holliday, don’t know what I was thinking of.
It’s reality.
Charlotte
RDU
Portland
Nashville
Sacramento
San Juan
Mexico City
Come on really, you lost me when you listed RDU. I live here. there is no way they could support a major baseball team, the same goes for Charlotte.
Again the Penguins were saved because the cap, and they’re the biggest draw on the road. Hockey will never be a major sport, because it’s not good for TV, but it’s a great sport to watch in person.
Michael David said:
It’s reality.
Under your plan, baseball would lose even more fans.
The NFL is doing quite fine with no team in LA. The Pads are the weakest example, but how many fans would you lose with no Marlins, Rays and Pirates? Most people in Fla are fans of other teams aleady and Pitt has not supported the Pirates for a long time now. There is no good reason any of those three teams should exist.
Also Hockey is what it is and I wasn’t trying to demean it but it just isn’t a good comparison to the other three sports.
So stop crying about the Yanks and Red Sox and just be thankful that they support your teams by generating revenue and interest, because without them there would be no Pirates, Rays or Padres.
Wow, lets just say you’re wrong on this one.
The NFL is doing quite fine with no team in LA. The Pads are the weakest example, but how many fans would you lose with no Marlins, Rays and Pirates? Most people in Fla are fans of other teams aleady and Pitt has not supported the Pirates for a long time now. There is no good reason any of those three teams should exist.
I don’t think you understand what you’re saying. If teams in MLB folded that would put MLB in the same class as indoor football, indoor Soccer, and other sub par leagues. MLB would be just another bush league.
once those teams folded, MLB would lose fans for generations.
Baseball was America’s game at one time.
During the 60’s, the NFL went head to head with the AFL, both leagues trying to out bid each other for the top players coming out of college.
They decided it would be wiser to merge the two leagues, becoming one league. Doing what was best to make the league a success not just a few teams.
Two of the most popular teams across America are, the Packers and Steelers. Two small market teams. This would not be the case if the NFL ran their league like MLB, and it’s fair to say most NFL team are worth more the MLB teams except for a few.
Name me one small market MLB team that is loved outside their own city.
The last time you could say that a small market team was loved nation wide would be the Reds and A’s from the 70’s. The A’s were big before free agency, and the Reds were big at the start. Now look at them. Now you want to tell them, hey thanks for keeping the game going for all those years, but now that you can’t afford a large payroll, we think it’s better that you just fold, and take the Royals, Rays, Pirates, Marlins, Padres with you.
Sad thing is Baseball has become a sad joke, There use to be a time when the playoffs and World Series was on, the other networks would show reruns, now they go head to head with it.
You Yankee fans keep saying the SM teams need to up their payroll to at least 50 million. OK lets say they all do it, what would the LM teams up their payroll too? The cost to going to a Major league game is already a good chunk of change.
Plus what is the going rate for a superstar now? 20- 25 Million, and that would go up once the SM teams up their payroll. So the SM team is still not gaining any ground.
Again, I’m not saying a cap has to be a hard cap. I also think player playing in New York should make a little more, just because of the pressure it takes to play there.
The NFL, NBA, NHL, Nascar, Golf, Tennis, Bowling, pretty much all play on a level playing field.
Baseball doesn’t, sure every once in awhile a SM teams makes a run at it, but it’s a one shot deal, and this year the four final teams all had payrolls of 100 million or more, and that will be a trend that continues.
I’ve been a baseball fan since I was 4, I love the game. I saw my first MLB when I was 7, and I was hooked. This year was the first time since I was 4 I didn’t watch a game from the first pitch to the last pitch, and I’ve only watch about 10 minutes of the first two WS games. It’s sad but I just don’t care.
I don’t now what you LM fans are afraid of, If you think it’s so easy to compete with a small budget than do it, show how smart you guys are. or could be if you don’t win, you won’t care. I think that would be the case except for Cub fans.They support their team no matter what.
One last thing, For you guys the play Fantasy Baseball, next year join a league with 8 - 10 teams, but let the other owner fill their roster first. Stick with your team the whole year, and at the end of the year. let me know what a good time you had.
I don’t have all the answers, but I can tell you this watching a few teams grab all the talent is not good for the game.
Michael David said:
Also Hockey is what it is and I wasn’t trying to demean it but it just isn’t a good comparison to the other three sports.
I agree, but the truth is, the Penguins are one of the top teams in the NHL, and for the most part it’s because of the cap. They can keep the core players they drafted.
“You Yankee fans keep saying the SM teams need to up their payroll to at least 50 million. OK lets say they all do it, what would the LM teams up their payroll too? The cost to going to a Major league game is already a good chunk of change.”
This is a false argument because no matter what the players, made the owners would charge the highest the market will bear.
As far as NFL surpassing baseball, it is a complicated issue. The major reason the NFL has surpassed MLB in most markets is gambling. Gambling encompasses pools, bookies, Vegas, and to an extent fantasy. Also people love the violence of the game and it is the ultimate tv sport.
If you look back to when baseball dominated sports the Yankees were beyond dominate. Obviously that didn’t hurt the league. How can you mention the A’s and leave out that they were ripped from Philly in the 1950’s and were by far the more successful team in the city? Shouldn’t the A’s have stayed where they were?
N.Y. Yankees $201,449,289 $7,748,050
New York Mets 135,773,988 4,849,071
Chicago Cubs 135,050,000 5,402,000
Boston 122,696,000 4,089,867
Detroit 115,085,145 4,110,184
Los Angeles Angels 113,709,000 4,061,036
Philadelphia 113,004,048 4,185,335
Houston 102,996,415 3,814,682
Los Angeles Dodgers 100,458,101 4,018,324
Seattle 98,904,167 3,532,292
Atlanta 96,726,167 3,335,385
Chicago White Sox 96,068,500 3,694,942
St. Louis 88,528,411 3,278,830
San Francisco 82,161,450 3,043,017
Cleveland 81,625,567 3,023,169
Toronto 80,993,657 2,892,631
Milwaukee 80,257,502 3,086,827
Colorado 75,201,000 2,785,222
Arizona 73,571,667 2,724,877
Cincinnati 70,968,500 2,957,021
Kansas City 70,908,333 2,727,244
Texas 68,646,023 2,367,104
Baltimore 67,101,667 2,580,833
Minnesota 65,299,267 2,251,699
Tampa Bay 63,313,035 2,183,208
Oakland 62,310,000 2,225,357
Washington 59,328,000 2,045,793
Pittsburgh 48,743,000 1,874,731
San Diego 42,796,700 1,528,454
Florida 36,814,000 1,314,786
Only three teams spent less than 50m. If they are not able to even compete with the Nats fiscally how can these three survive? Twelve teams spent over 96m and another five spent over 80m that is over 50% of the league. The three teams at the bottom hurt the game far more than the Yankees being at 200m. Should the Yankees bring down their payroll to the 150m range, perhaps and I would listen to that argument, but you have to see that the Pirates, Marlins, and Padres are much worse for the game than the Yankees.
As far as NFL surpassing baseball, it is a complicated issue. The major reason the NFL has surpassed MLB in most markets is gambling. Gambling encompasses pools, bookies, Vegas, and to an extent fantasy. Also people love the violence of the game and it is the ultimate tv sport.
I would agree it’s part of the reason, but the real reason is, they have a better product. Having SM teams being able to compete instead of saying screw you fold if you can’t has made the NFL the stronger of the two leagues.
As far as violence goes, what league has more Violence then the NHL?
If you look back to when baseball dominated sports the Yankees were beyond dominate. Obviously that didn’t hurt the league. How can you mention the A’s and leave out that they were ripped from Philly in the 1950’s and were by far the more successful team in the city? Shouldn’t the A’s have stayed where they were?
Why were the Yankees able to dominate all those years?
Major League Baseball has used a draft to assign minor league players to teams since 1921.[2][3] In 1936, the National Football League held the first amateur draft in professional sports.[4] A decade later, the National Basketball Association instituted a similar method of player distribution. However, the player draft was controversial. Congressman Emanuel Celler questioned the legality of drafts during a series of hearings on the business practice of professional sports leagues in the 1950s.[5] Successful clubs saw the draft as anti-competitive. Yankees executive Johnny Johnson equated it with communism.[6] At the same time, Pulitzer Prize winning sports columnist Arthur Daley compared the system to a “slave market.”[7]
Prior to the implementation of the First-Year Player Draft, amateurs were free to sign with any Major League team that offered them a contract. As a result, wealthier teams such as the New York Yankees and St. Louis Cardinals were able to stockpile young talent, while poorer clubs were left to sign less desirable prospects.[8]
In 1947, Major League Baseball implemented the bonus rule, a restriction aimed at reducing player salaries, as well as keeping wealthier teams from monopolizing the player market.[9] In its most restrictive form, it forbade any team which gave an amateur a signing bonus of more than $4,000 from assigning that player to a minor league affiliate for two seasons. If the player was removed from the major league roster, he became a free agent. The controversial legislation was repealed twice, only to be re-instituted.[10]
The bonus rule was largely ineffective. There were accusations that teams were signing players to smaller bonuses, only to supplement them with under-the-table payments.[7] In one famous incident, the Kansas City Athletics signed Clete Boyer, kept him on their roster for two years, then traded him to the Yankees just as he became eligible to be sent to the minor leagues. Other clubs accused the Yankees of using the Athletics as a de facto farm team, and the A’s later admitted to signing Boyer on their behalf.[11] Finally, it was the biding war for Rick Reichardt, who signed with the Los Angeles Angels for the then outrageous bonus of $200,000 that led to the implementation of the draft.
Major League clubs voted on the draft during the 1964 Winter Meetings. Four teams — the New York Yankees, St. Louis Cardinals, Los Angeles Dodgers, and New York Mets — attempted to defeat the proposal, but they failed to convince a majority of teams, and in the end only the Cardinals voted against it.[12]
The Fallen Empire (1965-1974)This is a featured page
By the time Mantle hung up his spikes, the Yankee dynasty was in severe decline. After winning World Series crowns in 1961 and 1962, and another American League title in 1964, the team won didn’t win another pennant for a dozen years, their longest drought since acquiring the Babe in 1920. During the decade from 1965 to 1974, they won 805 games and lost 804, barely posting a winning record and disappointing fans who’d grown accustomed to championship caliber teams year in and year out
So for the most part the Yankees have never won when they haven’t been able to out spend everyone. No free agency during that time.
As far as NFL surpassing baseball, it is a complicated issue. The major reason the NFL has surpassed MLB in most markets is gambling. Gambling encompasses pools, bookies, Vegas, and to an extent fantasy. Also people love the violence of the game and it is the ultimate tv sport.
I would agree it’s part of the reason, but the real reason is, they have a better product. Having SM teams being able to compete instead of saying screw you fold if you can’t has made the NFL the stronger of the two leagues.
As far as violence goes, what league has more Violence then the NHL?
If you look back to when baseball dominated sports the Yankees were beyond dominate. Obviously that didn’t hurt the league. How can you mention the A’s and leave out that they were ripped from Philly in the 1950’s and were by far the more successful team in the city? Shouldn’t the A’s have stayed where they were?
Why were the Yankees able to dominate all those years?
Major League Baseball has used a draft to assign minor league players to teams since 1921.[2][3] In 1936, the National Football League held the first amateur draft in professional sports.[4] A decade later, the National Basketball Association instituted a similar method of player distribution. However, the player draft was controversial. Congressman Emanuel Celler questioned the legality of drafts during a series of hearings on the business practice of professional sports leagues in the 1950s.[5] Successful clubs saw the draft as anti-competitive. Yankees executive Johnny Johnson equated it with communism.[6] At the same time, Pulitzer Prize winning sports columnist Arthur Daley compared the system to a “slave market.”[7]
Prior to the implementation of the First-Year Player Draft, amateurs were free to sign with any Major League team that offered them a contract. As a result, wealthier teams such as the New York Yankees and St. Louis Cardinals were able to stockpile young talent, while poorer clubs were left to sign less desirable prospects.[8]
In 1947, Major League Baseball implemented the bonus rule, a restriction aimed at reducing player salaries, as well as keeping wealthier teams from monopolizing the player market.[9] In its most restrictive form, it forbade any team which gave an amateur a signing bonus of more than $4,000 from assigning that player to a minor league affiliate for two seasons. If the player was removed from the major league roster, he became a free agent. The controversial legislation was repealed twice, only to be re-instituted.[10]
The bonus rule was largely ineffective. There were accusations that teams were signing players to smaller bonuses, only to supplement them with under-the-table payments.[7] In one famous incident, the Kansas City Athletics signed Clete Boyer, kept him on their roster for two years, then traded him to the Yankees just as he became eligible to be sent to the minor leagues. Other clubs accused the Yankees of using the Athletics as a de facto farm team, and the A’s later admitted to signing Boyer on their behalf.[11] Finally, it was the biding war for Rick Reichardt, who signed with the Los Angeles Angels for the then outrageous bonus of $200,000 that led to the implementation of the draft.
Major League clubs voted on the draft during the 1964 Winter Meetings. Four teams — the New York Yankees, St. Louis Cardinals, Los Angeles Dodgers, and New York Mets — attempted to defeat the proposal, but they failed to convince a majority of teams, and in the end only the Cardinals voted against it.[12]
The Fallen Empire (1965-1974)This is a featured page
By the time Mantle hung up his spikes, the Yankee dynasty was in severe decline. After winning World Series crowns in 1961 and 1962, and another American League title in 1964, the team won didn’t win another pennant for a dozen years, their longest drought since acquiring the Babe in 1920. During the decade from 1965 to 1974, they won 805 games and lost 804, barely posting a winning record and disappointing fans who’d grown accustomed to championship caliber teams year in and year out
So for the most part the Yankees have never won when they haven’t been able to out spend everyone. No free agency during that time.
I would agree for the most part the Yankees have been good for baseball, because of their rich history, but come on, stop being a Yankee fan for one second. I’ve ask several times why can’t baseball play on a level playing field like most of the other sports out there.
You posted the payrolls, and it clearly shows that it’s not a level playing field.
If you want to read why the A’s left Philly for KC here’s the link.
Philadelphia Athletics Historical Society’s Official Website and …
Pretty much sounds like what you’d want to happen to the SM teams today.
I was talking about the A’s of the early 70′S I would say one of the best teams of all time.
. Should the Yankees bring down their payroll to the 150m range, perhaps and I would listen to that argument, but you have to see that the Pirates, Marlins, and Padres are much worse for the game than the Yankees.
King George would never do it. After being embarrassed last year by the Rays, there was no way he was going to let it happen again, and he proved it by the amount he spent this past off season.
As far as who’s worse for the game, for every person you could get to day the Padres and the others I could find someone to say the Yankees. So on this one will have to agree to disagree.
Can we all agree on one thing. I’m tired of Yankee fans who are in their 20’s telling me how they have 26 rings, It should only count if you’ve been around for all 26 rings. For the most part I was just joking about that.
Sad thing is, most Yankee fans I’ve talked to over the years, know less about the history of the great teams of the past then me, but that’s really not fair, because I (USE) to eat , sleep, and drink baseball.
The fact of the matter is that when the Yankees couldn’t buy their team they didn’t win Look at the period in the 60’s to the 70’s before free agency started.
Who was New York’s team before somebody bought Babe Ruth? Yeah the Giants. The Yanks were nobody’s until they started to outspend everyone else. The Yanks spent nearly 500mill on 4 players this offseason. You mean to tell me the Rays would be able to drop that kind of money? Where were they this season? Oh yeah the Yanks outspent them into the ground and got to the world series. The Rays in third.
So what if you win the world series? You outspent every other team. You should win the world series every year for the amount you guys spend. That’s like the USA Basketball team having the best players in the NBA play in the Olympics vs. amateur teams in 92.Sure there is no guarantee you’ll win, but it sure as hell helps your odds.
You said earlier that football is about QB’s well at least any team that drafts the top QB’s can actually keep the QB. How many of those top players on your Yankees team did you draft? how many did you buy? And for the ones you did draft did you have other teams with big payrolls snatching them away?
I don’t want to hear about how much the Yankees give other teams. What 2 million? wow that’s so much… Oh wait how many players in your lineup make just 2 million? A-Rod? no he makes over 10 times that in just a year. Teixeira? oh yeah that’s right he makes over 10 times that as well. In fact do you have anyone under 5 times 2 mill in your starting lineup?
Baseball is a flawed system plain and simple. There needs to be a minimum cap, and a maximum cap. Most people have lost faith in baseball because a lot of their teams just can’t compete.
The NFL has the MLB beat on that. It is organized as a unified league and have continually eroded America’s Pastime since the NFL became about the league and not individual teams. If the MLB wants to succeed they need to become about the league and not a few select teams. Believe it or not the Yankees need all of the other teams to survive. As much as the Yankees would love to play themselves every week. No one but those lovable Yankee fans would show up.
Give all the teams equal ground on how much to spend on players you wouldn’t have those lovely 26 rings, in fact it could be argued you would have none.
Here are the attendance figures for 2009:
http://espn.go.com/mlb/attendance
The bottom five in attendance are Pittsburgh, Cincinatti, Cleveland, Florida, and Oakland.
When did MLB become Americas past-time? Oh that’s right it was in the 1920’s and 30’s when the New York Yankees dominated. When did MLB begin to slide In the 1980’s when the New York Yankees were just an average team. Also show me the competitive balance in the NFL? Gambling has a huge amount to do with its success. MLB has set plenty of attendance records in the past decade and revenues have increased so I don’t think any of this is hurting the game. TV ratings may have dropped for the WS but TV ratings are dropping for everything. There are just so many games on now that it makes the big games less attractive. I used to love the Saturday afternoon national game but now when its on I can take it or leave it. I will tell you in my personal experience teams that do not make a fair effort to compete hurt baseball much more than any imbalance. The Phillies completely eroded the BB fanbase in Philly from 1984 - 2003 by not even making a reasonable effort to compete. Yes I know they caught lightning in a bottle in 1993. The Phillies were barely an afterthought in a ravenous sports town. That is what not putting in any real effort does.
Jay there was no free agency in the 30’s 40’s or 50’s either. It did not start until 1975. Jay look up the numbers the yankees pay well over 50m to the other teams and 20+m in just luxury tax dollars.
To help balance the league further foreign players should be required to enter the draft.
If those bottom three teams cannot even afford to come up to compete at the $70m level they need to be moved or folded. Like I said I can see an argument for a max of around 150m but I don’t really like to limit people’s earning potential, which is what a cap does.
Jack, I agree about the 26 rings thing. Although I admit I do it to cause a stir at times. Also never refer to your team as WE. Nome of us play for the team.
50 mill per team or 50 mill spread out to all the teams? Also its a little vain to assume baseball became Americas pastime om the shoulders of the Yankees. It became Americas based on all of the great teams in the MLB. Why did it loose being Americas sport? Strike of 94, and Steroids wiping the importance of stats which is one of the most important aspects of baseball.
You keep throwing around gambling, where is your evidence? All major sports have a strong history of gambling behind them. Black Sox anyone?
That period when the Yankees fell was between the end of unfair drafting and free agency which Jack referenced here.
“In 1947, Major League Baseball implemented the bonus rule, a restriction aimed at reducing player salaries, as well as keeping wealthier teams from monopolizing the player market.[9] In its most restrictive form, it forbade any team which gave an amateur a signing bonus of more than $4,000 from assigning that player to a minor league affiliate for two seasons. If the player was removed from the major league roster, he became a free agent. The controversial legislation was repealed twice, only to be re-instituted.[10]
The bonus rule was largely ineffective. There were accusations that teams were signing players to smaller bonuses, only to supplement them with under-the-table payments.[7] In one famous incident, the Kansas City Athletics signed Clete Boyer, kept him on their roster for two years, then traded him to the Yankees just as he became eligible to be sent to the minor leagues. Other clubs accused the Yankees of using the Athletics as a de facto farm team, and the A’s later admitted to signing Boyer on their behalf.[11] Finally, it was the biding war for Rick Reichardt, who signed with the Los Angeles Angels for the then outrageous bonus of $200,000 that led to the implementation of the draft.
Major League clubs voted on the draft during the 1964 Winter Meetings. Four teams — the New York Yankees, St. Louis Cardinals, Los Angeles Dodgers, and New York Mets — attempted to defeat the proposal, but they failed to convince a majority of teams, and in the end only the Cardinals voted against it.[12]
The Fallen Empire (1965-1974)This is a featured page
By the time Mantle hung up his spikes, the Yankee dynasty was in severe decline. After winning World Series crowns in 1961 and 1962, and another American League title in 1964, the team won didn’t win another pennant for a dozen years, their longest drought since acquiring the Babe in 1920. During the decade from 1965 to 1974, they won 805 games and lost 804, barely posting a winning record and disappointing fans who’d grown accustomed to championship caliber teams year in and year out”
The Only way the Yankees ever got a competitive age is when they could outspend everyone for their players.
Answer this do you think its fair for players to use Steroids to give them the competitive edge?
Why have the ratings been dropping for the MLB? Its simple the few major market teams are the only ones that garner viewership. In the NFL the teams have a far higher percentage of the people in their city watching (because they are competitive) and you get fans from all over because their are more competitive teams in the NFL.
But you know what keep your blind love for the Yankees and for the flawed system they play in, because if they keep things the way they are now. You can have your 26 rings but their wont be anyone to play you, because you have made the sport not fun.
“Yay dad we get to go to a baseball game, Sorry son we probably wont win this one because the team we are playing against has spent OVER a $150,000,000 on their players than us, and no matter how much they say our team can put up, its not that much.”
#1. I do not have 26 rings, the Yankees do.
#2. Baseball was rebuilt after the Black Sox on the back of Babe Ruth and the Yankees.
#3. The NFL is not more competitive. No quantifiable numbers show that conclusion.
The strike did hurt baseball for a few years but I think steroids is much more of a pompous media issue than a fan issue. I really don’t care if people use HGH or roids. If they get caught they should pay the price and if not that’s life. If you are worried abou drug use, what about the decades long abuse of amphetamines by all teams? Also I believe the NFL gets off very easy when it comes to PEDs. You cannopt tell me that the size and speed of players has increased naturally.
As far as objectivity, I would argue that I am much more objective than you, Jay. I look at sports strictly as an entertainment business. I have no hardcore allegiance to anyone. I am a fan of the Yankees, yes, but that does not mean I do not see their flaws. Yes they outspend to win and because they make that financial investment they garner incredible amounts of revenue. What is the reason the Cubs, Dodgers, White Sox, or Giants could not have built the same dominate business? They are all in similar size markets, have pretty much the same access to revenue, yet only the Yankees are able to spend and win the way they do. Look at the Cubs, as a team they are a complete failure. They never win and yet the fans still come out. How much more revenue would that team have if they actually won a few world seeries? Look at how Red Sox revenue jumped because of nationwide interest after they won their WS. Just because GS bought a franchise and rebuilt it and invested heavily into it, why should he be punished.
What have the Marlins, Padres, and Pirates invested into their teams to make them more viable? I know all three have whined for the public to build them a stadium. How has that helped? All they have done is bilked the public by not making a fair effort,
The goal of all ownership groups, first and foremost is to make money. Some do it by playing the system and riding the gravy train of the other teams and some invest and take risk to build a franchise that fans will support. There is no excuse to ever have a payroll lover than KC or the Nats. The league would not suffer at all without the three teams I have mentioned (Marllins,Pads, Pirates).
If those bottom three teams cannot even afford to come up to compete at the $70m level they need to be moved or folded. Like I said I can see an argument for a max of around 150m but I don’t really like to limit people’s earning potential, which is what a cap does.
So is it safe to assume with this statement you’re against a government run health care system. Because if you tax the rich or well off you’re putting a limit on their potential earnings, and if the poor can’t come up with the funds to pay for it themselves they should just move to Canada.
Michael David said:
Jack, I agree about the 26 rings thing. Although I admit I do it to cause a stir at times. Also never refer to your team as WE. Nome of us play for the team.
This season it’s been we 3 times with Chargers and 3 them
Taxing earnings is not limiting earnings. I would have no problem paying taxes on my incredible health coverage to help others but thats just me. Also I think their is a fair debate to be had about a public option but all people should be covered and we as a nation need to make that happen. Peoples lives and health are more important than any ideology.
Funny thing is I think we are both arguing against are natural political bent in this baseball issue.
When did MLB become Americas past-time? Oh that’s right it was in the 1920’s and 30’s when the New York Yankees dominated. When did MLB begin to slide In the 1980’s when the New York Yankees were just an average team
This I cannot disagree with. The great Yankee teams of the 20’s and 30’s built baseball to what is was before the 80’s started seeing a decline.
A few things have killed baseball during the 80’s, and no it wasn’t because the Yankees were and average team.
First: All the strikes and work stoppages, and the cancellation of the World series. The average man on the street can’t relate to people who make millions complaining about what they make.
Second: Free agency, Sure the system wasn’t fair until 1965. sure the LM teams could go out and get the most talented player. Come on who was Mickey Mantle going to sign with, the Yankees who always had a chance to go to post season thus giving the player a little bonus for making it to post season, or the ST. Louis Browns.
Most of the Yankee greats were home grown, they weren’t taking players off other teams roster just because they could pay them more, leaving those teams with nothing.
I couldn’t Imagine being a young fan of a SM team today. Watching your hero for 5 or 6 years, collecting his baseball card, maybe having his poster up in your room, only to see him snatched away by a LM team because your team can’t afford him.
This is what you Yankee fans don’t get. I’m sure millions of young Yankee fans worship Jeter, as they should, he’s a great player, but what if the Yankees didn’t have the money to pay him and he went to Boston. I think most kids would be crushed, and lets say they lose a few more stars and have to rebuild, what would happen to the fan base? It would go down the drain.
Jay was lucky, his favorite player was Tony Gwynn, and he choose to stay and play in San Diego for less money. This is not the case of most players. Most choose the money, and I can’t blame them. If someone offer me more money, I’d might leave too.
Back on the 20’s. 30’s 40’s 50’s 60’s fans of every team good or bad could count on their favorite player still being with the team they supported for the most part.
Now only a few teams can keep their star players if they choose too, Young fans of those teams don’t have to worry about their hero being snatched away, and this more then anything is killing the game.
It’s true over the years you either hated the Yankees or loved them, and I’m sure that is what most people watching this years WS are made up of. Haters and Lovers, but the fact is less people are watching, and I’m one of them.
As a baseball fan I love reading about all the great players the Yankees had over the years, but it’s sad but being a fan of a SM team just isn’t fun anymore. Watching your team having to lose or trade their star player because they can’t afford them, and than having to rebuild again, just doesn’t do it for me.
I guess for me, sports should always start out on a level playing field, and if one teams drafts the better players, makes the better trades, get the breaks, has the ball bounce their way, and so on, than they should be the champs. But from what I’ve read and heard from Yankee fans, it’s screw you if you can’t compete fold or move.
If the Yankees win this year, I guess I should say congrats. I really don’t care if they do or not. I almost hope they do, because If they don’t, I wonder how much King George will spend this off season.
Michael David said:
Taxing earnings is not limiting earnings. I would have no problem paying taxes on my incredible health coverage to help others but thats just me. Also I think their is a fair debate to be had about a public option but all people should be covered and we as a nation need to make that happen. Peoples lives and health are more important than any ideology.
Funny thing is I think we are both arguing against are natural political bent in this baseball issue.
Sure it is, if I’m being taxed at a higher rate you’re limiting my earnings. If I have less money to invest, it effects what I can make, Right?
As far as incredible health coverage, I guess we’ll have to wait and see. I don’t have as much faith with the jokers in Washington, on both sides as some.
eric said:
Here are the attendance figures for 2009:
http://espn.go.com/mlb/attendance
The bottom five in attendance are Pittsburgh, Cincinatti, Cleveland, Florida, and Oakland.
Are you making a case for or against the cap?
Starting in 2010 if the NFL goes without a cap, and teams like Dallas, Washington, Jet, Giants, Pats go crazy, by 2015 the ratings for the NFL will drop like a ton of bricks
I agree the downturn of the 80’s and 90’s had nothing to do with the Yankees but I think the idea that baseball is dying is wrong. MLB revenues are very close to the NFL and TV ratings are not everything. It is very different than it was in the past and I don’t think kids look at sports the way we did. The media use to propagate bogus legends and promote players as bigger than life. I think its good that that has changed and media coverage is much more critical. Growing up in the late 70’s early 80’s I was on the edge of the change in coverage. Kids just have a million more options today and sports has become more adult oriented. I tend not to lament changes and just look at it as an evolution of the games. Also all of us tend to romanticize the era we grew up in it’s just human nature.
No I was saying I do have incredible health coverage currently and would be willing to pay taxes commiserate with that benefit.
I have no faith in congress, so I can’t argue that.
Here are the teams that have been in the world series since 1997:
Indians, Marlins, Padres, Yankees, Braves, Mets, Diamondbacks, Giants, Angels, Cardinals, Red Sox, Astros, White Sox, Tigers, Rockies, Phillies, Rays.
So in the last 12 years, well over 50% of the teams in Major League Baseball have made the World Series.
Attendance this year, in spite of the economy, was the 5th highest of all time. Revenues continue to grow faster than players’ salaries.
Doesn’t sound like the game is being killed at all to me.
An article on the lack of parity in the NFL:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/kerry_byrne/10/28/parity/
Here are the teams that have made the Superbowl since 1997:
Broncos, Packers, Falcons, Rams, Titans, Giants, Ravens, Patriots, Bucs, Raiders, Panthers, Eagles, Steelers, Seahawks, Colts, Bears, Cardinals.
Guess what? That is 17 teams!
And here are the teams that have made the World Series: Indians, Marlins, Padres, Yankees, Braves, Mets, Diamondbacks, Giants, Angels, Cardinals, Red Sox, Astros, White Sox, Tigers, Rockies, Phillies, Rays. Oh my god, look at that, it’s 17 teams!
But no somehow the NFL is more competitive that MLB. Please.
eric said:
Attendance this year, in spite of the economy, was the 5th highest of all time. Revenues continue to grow faster than players’ salaries.
Also mention in that article was League wide attendance was down 6.9% from 08, and 20 teams attendance was lower in 09, than 08
2009 NFL Attendance Figures Are Strong
Published by MoonDog on October 29, 2009
The nation may be in the throes of an economic downturn, but you wouldn’t know it by looking at the most recent NFL attendance figures.
Not having reached the halfway point yet of the 2009 NFL season, 28 of the 32 teams have drawn at least 91% of their stadium capacity.
Fourteen teams have drawn at least 99% of total capacity and eight teams have enjoyed 100% or greater of total stadium capacity.
As you might suspect, Dallas’ new home – Cowboys Stadium – has had a huge impact on attendance. The drawing power of the new venue has helped the Cowboys lead all NFL franchises in home game attendance, bringing in an average of 92,410 fans.
The Washington Redskins, last season’s leader in average home game attendance, have seen a decrease in attendance thus far in 2009.
The team’s poor play to this point in the season may have had an impact on attendance more than economic factors, but Washington is drawing an average of 84,588 fans per game, down 4,016 fans per game from last season.
The two New York teams – the Giants and Jets – have each played three home games this season. Yet, the NFC’s Giants have drawn better than the AFC’s Jets, averaging nearly 2,000 more fans for their games.
Rounding out the top five in home game attendance, the Denver Broncos are averaging 75,460 fans for their three home games.
eric said:
Here are the teams that have been in the world series since 1997:
Indians, Marlins, Padres, Yankees, Braves, Mets, Diamondbacks, Giants, Angels, Cardinals, Red Sox, Astros, White Sox, Tigers, Rockies, Phillies, Rays.
Like I’ve said before I get all of what you’re saying, but what I’m saying once a SM team makes it there. Shouldn’t they have a fair shot to compete?
MLB Attendance Drops For Second Straight Season
By The Associated Press 10/02/09 - 03:40 PM EDT
NEW YORK (AP) — Rich Aurilia noticed all the empty seats as he made his way around the major leagues during the second half of this season.
“You have to,” the San Francisco Giants infielder said. “I think you do in the places where the teams are totally out of it.”
Attendance has dropped 6.9 percent across the majors to its lowest level since 2003, an average of 30,276. That follows a 0.8 percent slide last year from the record average of 32,785 set in 2007.
Given the recession and the decrease in capacity in two new ballparks that opened in New York this year, baseball officials are pleased.
“Obviously, I’ve stated how well we’ve done,” commissioner Bud Selig said this week. “I’ll have plenty to say after I’ve seen the final numbers.”
Even before the end of this season, some teams are slashing ticket prices for 2010. In the past, many teams waited until November to announce how much they will cost. Not any more.
So your point is that attendance has dropped from the record high two years ago, during the worst recession in 30 years. To me that is completely expected. To compare 81 games to 8 is difficult but NFL blackouts are up this year and Dallas has no one to sponsor their stadium. The recession hits each league differently. Also which teams are dragging down the attendance numbers? Would it be the markets that have traditionally had lower attendance teams dropping even further?
Look I understand. both sides can pull up stats to make their case.
All I can say for me is, since I was 4 if you ask me what my favorite sport was, the answer you’d get would be baseball. Ask me today, and I’d tell you football.
I know and have posted information showing baseball had never really played on a level playing field, but what the Yankees did this past off season just pissed me off. No team in any sport should just be able to buy a championship.
I get it, you’re Yankee fans and you should support your team. That’s what fans do. For the record I still support my Padres, they’ll always be my team.
I use to be a fan of the Yankees. One of my favorite books is the Bronx Zoo written by Sparky Lyle. For you die hard Yankee fans he was a left handed RP in the 70’s. All kidding aside it’s a great book and a must read for all baseball fans.
As a baseball of who doesn’t like Mantel, Ruth, Gehrig, Munson, Ford, Jeter, Berra, Etc.
The team that saved baseball, made it into America’s past time. Could be the team that kills it.
If the Yankees do this off season what they did last off season it will do my harm to the game then good.
Here is where we agree, I think what the Yankees did last offseason was over the top. I don’t have a problem overpaying CC because that only had to do with him not wanting to play in NY and he is one of the best in the game. However overpaying for an overrated AJ Burnett is something that I still, even after the other night, think was ridiculous. He is not a good enough player to up the market. Also, I have no love for Mantle because he was a horrible human being. Here is where I disagree, the teams at the very bottom are the biggest detriment to the league. Its not the teams that have a bad year here and there but the consistent failures that hurt the league. The LM “buying” rings does turn off some fans and maybe there can be something to mitigate that, a foreign draft would be a good start. Allowing teams to buy Japanese and Latin players is not fair. I would like to see the Yanks actually start to follow what the Phils have done buy signing key free agents but also being smart about it. The payroll should begin to come down, but they had to make the investment because of the new stadium. They had to make the playoffs and compete for the WS that first year. Sparky Lyle actually lives about 5 miles from me in Cherry Hill NJ so yes I know who he is.
I have slid some from all sports, mostly because of the public funding of stadia, and really dont look at it through a true fan’s eyes any longer. I tend to look at the teams as businesses and take into account how they run the team as a whole, fiscally and on the field.
I agree with you about 95%. I would also have a cap on players coming out of high school and college. SM teams pass on players they know they can’t sign.
It took the Yankees a long time to figure out what kind of advantage they have.
They use to trade away their young players for older player. now they keep their young players , trade for other teams great players, and sign the leagues best free agents, and continue to build their farm system.
It’s safe to say no other team can do what they do.
I couldn’t agree with you more on Burnett. If history repeat itself, Yankees fans will be giving him an earful next season
Michael David said:
So your point is that attendance has dropped from the record high two years ago, during the worst recession in 30 years. To me that is completely expected. To compare 81 games to 8 is difficult but NFL blackouts are up this year and Dallas has no one to sponsor their stadium. The recession hits each league differently. Also which teams are dragging down the attendance numbers? Would it be the markets that have traditionally had lower attendance teams dropping even further?
Every major sport has it’s weak teams. It’s starts with a bad owner, and works it’s way down.
But even the bad teams have a fan base no matter how small, and those fans will watch the playoffs and World Series and think wait until next year.
The only team that keeps a large fan base without winning is the Cubs. They love their team. Do you think the Yankees would have that kind of devotion not having won it all in over 100 years?
It would not be good for baseball to have teams fold. It’s all about image, if teams folded they would look like a bush league, and you’d lose fans in that market forever.
It has been posted a few times that yes, SM teams have made it to the WS, and they do get a bump in attendance the following year, but after that they lose their core players to the LM teams and then they’re back to rebuilding, and lets face it most fans want to win or at least compete, and to build a strong fan base this has to happen. you can’t build a strong fan base being one and done.
I’ll say it again. MLB would be wise to at least give the teams that want to compete a fair chance. Let them at least try to keep their core player.
I can’t blame King George he’s only playing by the rules in front of him.
Halftime time is over back to watching football.lol
I think folding is extreme, but I think moving one ore two teams to foreign markets would be beneficial to the league. I don’t know how viable San Juan is but it should be considered and Mexico City is a huge possible market. I would have to look and see other reasonable markets in the hemisphere.
I think some of the mid market and smaller market teams worked on the faulty premise that they had to let talent go because the couldn’t afford it, I think the investment in keeping some of those players would have helped them keep their base. I watched what the Phillies did from 84 until they signed Thome (I forget the year) and once people saw they made a commitment to Thome that is what began the return of their fans. Without that first step they would have not regained at least some backing from the fanbase. Since they have made a complete turn around in the eyes of the city. The Phils used to consistently be in the lower half of payrolls and complained about revenue but now they have a top 5 payroll and no issue with lack of revenue. Teams must make an investment first to wins fans because there is so much competition for the entertainment dollar.
I’ll only go to LA for the lost finale if you institute yublog revenue sharing. ;p
Michael, we’d need to have revenue in order to have revenue sharing.
Not to kiss up, but you do a great job with the site and it’s a great outlet for those of us with no life.
We’ll just pay our way to LA with all those tax dollars I suck up in my salary. Go Yanks!!!
Isn’t the Yankees 2009 payroll actually LOWER than their 2008 payroll?
Eric, I believe you are correct but it is still over 200m.
But the way Jack said: “I know and have posted information showing baseball had never really played on a level playing field, but what the Yankees did this past off season just pissed me off. No team in any sport should just be able to buy a championship,” I thought it was important to point out that the Yankees actually lowered payroll.
eric said:
But the way Jack said: “I know and have posted information showing baseball had never really played on a level playing field, but what the Yankees did this past off season just pissed me off. No team in any sport should just be able to buy a championship,” I thought it was important to point out that the Yankees actually lowered payroll.
I should have been clearer. I was talking about what the Yankees did last off season. When they guaranteed over 400 million dollars in contracts. I’ve heard it was over 500 million, but I don’t do math.lol
Well… thank you so much for that vicious and unfounded rant, Jay. You just solidified my decision finally unsubscribe from your now underwhelming and unfortunately boring podcast which brings nothing to the table of the Lost community as a whole.
I love that you decided to bring “blind love” and bias into your argument against the Yankees. This, coming from the guy that decided to create new podcasts for two underwhelming ABC shows, when Fringe is clearly more worthy of a weekly podcast and is actually a, ya know, good show. Yeah, I’m sure politics had nothing to do with that decision.
Hell, even Kris decided to stay away from your train wreck.
Hah way to come out of left field Tommy. You always gotta love those kinds of comments. I also love how he can consider one show underwhelming even when it hasn’t premiered yet. Sorry you’re unsubscribing, hope you enjoy the rest of Fringe. I know I am enjoying FlashForward and V so far
Yeah Jay, how dare you have an opinion in this discussion. Bow to the Yankees, got it.
Hey Tommy,
can you send me a link to your Fringe podcast. I’d like to listen to it.
I liked to thank everyone on both sides of this debate for expressing their opinion without personal. After all when all is said and done it’s just a game.
Even if one team doesn’t play fair. jk
I forgot getting
That’s it I’m boycotting all non-Yankee fans. Except my wife.
Wow just heard the rant on Married Man, and I’m sorry Jack and Jay are soft left coasters who can’t handle the booing. Go back to SD smoke pot,surf and breathe smog or whatever the freaks out there do.
I knew Dale was the smartest one.
Michael David said:
Wow just heard the rant on Married Man, and I’m sorry Jack and Jay are soft left coasters who can’t handle the booing. Go back to SD smoke pot,surf and breathe smog or whatever the freaks out there do.
I live with that
I knew Dale was the smartest one. But this one really hurts.lol
Yeah that Dale line was below the belt.
At least you dont have to live with
What exit are you from?
Chemical Waste jokes
and Bon Jovi
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200…ket/index.html
I’d like to see the Yankees sign Cliff Lee, Vlad as DH, unfortunately I don’t think Matsui will be back and I’m not sure what will happen with Pettitte.
A mysterious rise in the ratings with 2 large market teams in the WS… but if everyone loves the underdog why didn’t they watch last year?
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20091105&content_id=7628550&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb
@Michael David
If you think the Yankees can pull off getting Cliff Lee for the 2010 season I want to know who your dealer is, because I want some of that.
Michael David said:
A mysterious rise in the ratings with 2 large market teams in the WS… but if everyone loves the underdog why didn’t they watch last year?
Yankee fans always say they’re the best baseball fans in the world. Why is it they only watch when their team is playing?
I use to watch no matter who was playing, but this WS I watched about 10 minutes.
Categorized | ‘
Super Bowl TV Ratings
Posted on 18 January 2009 by Bill Gorman
2/5/09 Update: chart and table updated with 2009 information.
Unlike many other championship sporting events which have declined over time, Super Bowl TV ratings have not only held up well, but after a generation of fairly flat results, have begun growing again in the past 4 years and last year’s Super Bowl XLII had the most average viewers ever. Whether that’s part of a longer term growth trend, or just a short term uptick remains to be seen.
Complete Super Bowl TV Ratings, for the last 5 SuperBowls
Date Net Rating Share $/30 Sec. Ad Homes (000) Viewers (000) NFC Champion AFC Champion
XLIII Feb 1 2009* FOX 42.0 64 $3,000,000 48,139 98,732 Arizona Pittsburgh
XLII Feb 3 2008* FOX 43.1 65 $2,699,963 48,665 97,448 New York Giants New England
XLI Feb 4 2007 * CBS 42.6 64 $2,385,365 47,505 93,184 Chicago Indianapolis
XL Feb 5 2006 * ABC 41.6 62 $2,500,000 45,867 90,745 Seattle Pittsburgh
XXXIX Feb 6 2005 FOX 41.1 62 $2,400,000 45,081 86,072 Philadelphia New England
Even last year with two small market teams, the ratings remained strong
C’mon Jack you know most of the people watching the SB do not care about the game. They watch to see the ads, check block pools, length of the Anthem, heads or tails and blah blah blah. Also you can’t compare a 4 - 7 night event with one game. NFL is bigger on TV no doubt but how does that change the Pirates and Marlins not making a real effort to win? The ratings were up significantly ( especially in RDU as I learned from Jay this morning) nationwide which goes completely against your crackpot theory that not having small market teams hurts the game. I agree that revenue sharing is important for competion especially for teams that actually want to compete.
WB Tony it’s called tongue in cheek.
I can only report the facts.
As far as it the ratings being up nationwide, yes it doesn’t hurt to have the Yankees in the WS, but if they spend this off season like they did last year, there will be a back lash that will bring real change to MLB.
This morning I had 16 guys come in for hockey, I asked each one if they watched the WS, 2 of the 16 said a little, the other 14 said no,and 5 of them said they didn’t watch because they’re tired of the Yankees buying a championship.
You didn’t answer this question
Yankee fans always say they’re the best baseball fans in the world. Why is it they only watch when their team is playing?
C’mon Jack you know most of the people watching the SB do not care about the game.
I agree, but how many of those die hard Yankee fans were watching just because they wanted to say they’re a winner. I think to be a die hard Yankee fan, you should know more about your team than I do, now I’m not talking about you, but some kill me with that’s 27 baby, but thay don’t know who Thuman Munson is or what number Joe Dimaggo number was, and I could go on.
I agree that revenue sharing is important for competion especially for teams that actually want to compete.
I don’t think Owners don’t want to compete, they’re rich, they have ego’s, but some are just bad owners, King George use to be one of them.
Baseball does not have one SM team that is a draw outside of their own area. The last one I can think of off the top of my head would be the Royals. Football has plenty, Pittsburgh, Green Bay, the Colts, and yes even the Chargers do well on national TV.
Wouldn’t it be better for MLB to prop up the SM teams so just in case the Yankees don’t make it to the WS the ratings don’t drop like a ton of bricks?
You asked a bunch of hockey players if they watched, of course they didn’t no one was clubbing each other with the bats.
Personally I watch the WS every no matter who is in it but I can tell you that the NE cites (Boston NY Philly) care much more about their teams than they do about the sport. I think the passion and support they give their home teams causes a let down that you don’t get in the cities that just aren’t as passionate. Fans in the NE live and die with their teams it’s not entertainment like the Midwest or WC.
How many road fans were the Colts drawing when Ron Meyer was coach? Pittsburgh does have a national following similar to the cowboy because of the 1970’s. Most of PA is Steeler country but you see steeler fans everywhere. Yeah the Packers were a huge draw with Lynn Dickey. The packers are huge because the media has some sick love affair with Brent Favre. The will shove that down your throat until you can’t take anymore.
I remember the lynn Dickey days people in San Diego love the Packers. The Colts have been a draw since they’ve had Manning. If the NFL had the same rules as MLB Manning would be playing for Dallas or the Jets, or some other LM team, and the same could be said about Farve in his prime. Again, you can’t say that about one SM team in MLB, the system won’t allow it.
I agree about Farve. I haven’t followed any news about him in the off season the last few years. If he wants to play, play, but I’m not getting caught up in his drama. Sad thing is, he can still play the game.
The braves are not a large market team yet they dominated the NL for 13 years. During that time they invested in the team and had a competitive owner. What happened once they were sold? They became a frugal mediocre te that doesn’t draw. The Braves following in the SE is huge. St Louis Cards have a huge following as well and they are not LM. Of course both of those teams have been consistent winners who chose to compete and aren’t just happy with 85 wins. Not all rich people are competitive and if they are that doesn’t mean they will do everything to win they may just want to make the most money with the least risk. I would argue some use losing as a way to leverage a stadium, which is all about making money. Also the Mariners have any international following because of Ichiro.
Growing up in San Diego during the 70’s the teams I wanted to see in person were, the Reds, Pirates, and the team I hated the most, the Dodgers. Now of those 3 teams the only one I would go out of my way would be the Dodgers.
On TV it was a must to watch the A’s, Baltimore, Red Sox and Yankees.
Under today’s syestem we wouldn’t of had the Big Red Machine, or the great Pittsburgh and Baltimore, and the swinging A’s, and that would be sad.
The hard part for me is, like I’ve said before, I’m all for the players making whatever they can, but something needs to give.
If Clif Lee does sign with the Yankees, it will be for at least 200 million. at 7 years. That’s what it will take.
What did the Braves have going for them during those years. Their own network, They were the first ones to be nationwide almost everyday. Plus they had an owner with deep pockets, and he use MLB, and his team to build his network. During the 80’s I watched the Braves on TV more than the Padres.
St. Louis has been a great baseball town forever. I would say they are the smartest fans out there, and who owned them for the longest time, some beer company by the name of Busch. They’ve had a strong fan base since the 30’s
So now SM owners that actually invest in their teams and build a brand don’t count because they are too successful? Name one thing the Pirates have done since 1994 to improve their team. They are the outliers. They are bad for the game, just like the Clippers in the NBA and the Browns in the NFL. Non competitive teams that do not even attempt to win are a much bigger problem than the percieved LM dominance. The A’s could have built a dynasty if they did not trade all of their talent every year. If they invested in one or two of the pitchers they let go and built around them that would have shown fans they were making an effort. It’s not the 60’s or 50’s where fans will just show up, you have to make a serious tangible effort and the Pirates definitely have not done that.
I know we all miss the “We are Family” days but they are not coming back. Not even the Kent Tekulvee days are coming back.
The one thing the Pirates have done is, supplied the other teams in MLB with some pretty good players. Again I would agree with you if they played on a level playing field. They have been bad for a long time, but I would say the Browns and Clippers, and I know a lot about the Clippers, Have been bad in a league where at least they have a chance.
As far as the A’s go. They did what they had to do. In today’s system. SM teams have to trade their good or great players a year or two early, try and get the best deal they can. Sure it sounds easy, just pay what the going rate is, or you can do what some SM teams do, keep the good young players, make a run at winning it all, you may even make it, but than what happens you can’t pay your stars the going rate, and than you’re back to rebuilding, You can’t build a fan base that way.
What the A’s tried to do was be competitive for as long as they could by building their farm system and than trading their good players for 2 or 3 prospects, and it works for awhile, until the players you’re trading for don’t pan out, and there is no way they can pay the going rate for star players in the current system.
I’ll make a deal with you, if baseball ever goes to a system that the SM teams have a chance to keep their good young players, have a chance to sign the top free agents, can draft the best players out of high school and college, and they still can’t win, because they’re being cheap, than the owner should be force to sell the team. I’m not for the team folding, it’s not good for the game.
In my lifetime, baseball during the 60′, 70’s, 80’s, and 90’s was the best, and the Padres during the 70’s were one of the worst teams in Baseball.
I guess we’ll have to wait and see what King George does this off season, but if he spends the way he did last off season, even some of the LM teams will start to be affected by it.
I don’t like caps that’s just my preference but I think baseball can do a better job of leveling the playing field. Caps to me do nothing for competitive balance. Also if you don’t think owners like Jerry Jones are going to try and take back some if their revenue in the next agreement you are mistaken. The NFL is going to look a lot more like MLB in the coming years. I think we agree that ownership groups that do not even attempt to compete, like Donald Sterling , are terrible for sports.
Here’s an interesting article from 2007:
http://money.cnn.com/2007/03/30/commentary/sportsbiz/index.htm
Just more evidence that a cap does not bring balance.
Thanks @Eric
Does Major League Baseball need a salary cap?
Posted Dec 25th 2008 4:00PM by Zac BissonnetteZac Bissonnette RSS Feed
Filed under: Business of sports
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With the signings of C.C. Sabathia, A.J. Burnett and Mark Teixeira, The New York Yankees have signed the three biggest contracts of the off-season.
That spending spree is raising concerns about competitive balance in baseball, and Milwaukee Brewers owner Mark Attanasio is none too pleased. In an email to Bloomberg, he wrote that “At the rate the Yankees are going, I’m not sure anyone can compete with them. Frankly, the sport might need a salary cap.”
In a phone interview with Bloomberg, he added that “I paid $220 million for my team; now they get three players for $420 million.” Brewers assistant general manager Gord Ash had some fighting words for the Yankees: “This is very reminiscent of what they have tried before. It didn’t work then, and I’m not sure it’s going to work now.”
Whether baseball will ever end up with a salary cap is an open question. Under the current system, teams that spend huge sums of money on players are required to pay a “luxury tax” to the league, but that seems to do little to dissuade these signings.
For the sport as a business, a salary cap seems to be the way to go. This arms race hurts profitability for all teams, and it certainly seems to be having a negative impact on team values. According to Forbes, the average National Football League team, which operates under a salary cap with non-guaranteed contracts, is worth $1.04 billion. In baseball, only the Yankees are valued at more than $1 billion, and the league average is just $472 million.
Tags: Brewers, Major League Baseball, MajorLeagueBaseball, MLB, Salary Cap, SalaryCap
That’s the great thing about the internet. You can always find an article to help make your case.
The best fantasy baseball league I was in was about 20 years ago.
Each team started with 20 thousand dollars to make up their team.
We took turns bringing up players, each owner would write down what they wanted to pay the player that was brought up. If you had the highest bid, you got that player, but you had to be smart. You couldn’t overpay for a player, because it would hurt you in the long run.
It wouldn’t make much sense to pay one player 15 thousand, if you could only pay the rest of your team 5 thousand. the following year you could keep around 40% of your team.
It was a great league. We kept it going for about 5 or 6 years, but life soon got in the way. People moved away and it just kind of lost steam.
I find it funny that fans of the Red Sox, Cubs, Dodgers, Mets are now complaining about what the Yankees did the last off season, because they know they can’t spend what the Yankees can spend.
I’ve said this before, we really have to wait and see what the Yankees do this off season. If they spend the way they did last year, it just won’t be the SM teams complaining.
Can we all agree the the first thing MLB has to do is Cap what the kids coming out of high school and college make.
I agree that caps do make the teams worth more but they do not do anything for competition. The NFL is completely unbalanced and in the NBA the top teams win every year, and the bad teams stay bad. Yes smaller markets can succeed in the NFL but what’s the difference if the Pirates stink in MLB every year or the Raiders embarrass the NFL year after year? At least in MLB there is a monetary incentive to get better. Why should Al Davis or Donald Sterling have the same benefits as Jerry Jones or Jerry Buss? If you want all the owners to be as rich as one another then yes, a cap will work for that, but it has not been proven to foster competition. Also as far as the Brewers owner complaining, its ridiculous. He bought into the league the way it is. The ownership agreement is the same as when he bought in, if he didn’t like it perhaps he should not have become an owner.
Without San Diego and Pittsburgh this would have never happen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vUhSYLRw14&feature=player_embedded
Michael David said:
I agree that caps do make the teams worth more but they do not do anything for competition. The NFL is completely unbalanced and in the NBA the top teams win every year, and the bad teams stay bad. Yes smaller markets can succeed in the NFL but what’s the difference if the Pirates stink in MLB every year or the Raiders embarrass the NFL year after year? At least in MLB there is a monetary incentive to get better. Why should Al Davis or Donald Sterling have the same benefits as Jerry Jones or Jerry Buss? If you want all the owners to be as rich as one another then yes, a cap will work for that, but it has not been proven to foster competition. Also as far as the Brewers owner complaining, its ridiculous. He bought into the league the way it is. The ownership agreement is the same as when he bought in, if he didn’t like it perhaps he should not have become an owner.
I hear what you’re saying, but as much as I hate the Raiders and Al Davis. I have to admit Al Davis is a big reason the NFL is what it is today.
Sure Al and the Raiders have become a joke of the NFL, but as a Charger fan, I’m OK with it. Long live AL.
Donald T Sterling has always been a joke of an owner. He pro basketball for San Diego. I think he wants to win, but he doesn’t know how, and he won’t let his ego stay out of the way.
Every league in every sports has bad owners.
I think what the Brewers owner was talking about and what I’ve been talking about is. What the Yankees did this last off season. Sure their payroll might be down from the year before, but no team in MLB can compete with the Yankees if they want a player they’re going to get him, and that’s not good for the game.
I’ll say again the system in the NFL is not perfect, but without a cap. Teams like Pittsburgh, Green Bay, the Colts, and Chargers would not be able to keep their star players, they’d be playing in Dallas, Washington, both New York teams, and I say this knowing the Chargers have been hurt by the cap. They’ve had to let great players go, Bree’s Turner, and after this season they may lose a couple of other stars, but I know without the cap they couldn’t compete.
Lets say you grew up in Pittsburgh ,and you’ve been a fan since day one. Would you want your favorite team to fold? I’ve had my favorite teams fold or move away. It sucks.
I remember when they were going to move the Eagles to Arizona in the middle of the night. The only thing that stopped it was that word leaked out, otherwise it would have been just like Baltimore, actually it was only a few years after that. There was a lot of anguish over that. I was only about ten when it came about but I do remember what it was like. This is really the only era in sports where teams haven’t been moved to other cities. Since the Browns were moved its been very stable. Moving one or two teams will not hurt the league. I’d much rather see a team move than see expansion.
You’re correct about Al Davis he was great for the league at one point. Its kind of sad to see what is going on out there.
Donald Sterling really doesn’t want to win. He is a greedy, loathsome bigot, who should be thrown out of the league. He makes Marge Schott look like Betty Crocker.
That LSD no no was awesome.
Let the free agent signings begin.
Here is an article from Jayson Stark on the revenue sharing issue and teams that are taking advantage of the sharing. It is a fair article (hopefully not Fair and Balanced).
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&page=rumblings091119
http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2010/04/19/forbes-and-yankees/
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